Jon: All right, we're here. 2 of 10,000 . But they fell on their faces and said, God, the God of the spirits of humanity, when one person sins, will you be angry with the entire congregation?. Psalm 2 depicts the Messianic King, whose anger burns against evil kings identified in the beginning and ending of the psalm. I looked this up after Kayleigh's question because I remember this from long time ago. I put penalty in quotes because I think we must distinguish consequences of forgiven sin (v. 13) from consequences of unforgiven sin. But then the problem is that they're just as corrupt as all of the nations. The letters of the Hebrew word "to shepherd" are ra'a'. And what we discover is not a systematic answer. Every significant philosophical, political, and economic movement in the West over the last 400 years has been about creating this new thing called the individual who is the autonomous. When I think about my hardships in this way, they suddenly have purpose. And it's real. Right? There's no situation where I'm purely only affected by my decisions. The latter are properly called penalties. The parent analogy helps me so much I think with anger. Herod had imprisoned John and had given the order for Johns beheading, yet Mark tells us that Herod was conflicted over the Baptist and kept him safe as long as he could (Mark 6:20). 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. First of all, thank you for all the work you've put into the Bible Project. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.. Where I hear you saying that there's this other hermeneutic that there's all these portraits and it creates a mosaic. There were many disagreements and unmet expectations. 3 Reasons God Doesn't Punish You for Your Sins - iBelieve The former we should probably call disciplinary consequences.. What was it that He actually accomplished? Now her passion is to mentor young women to live purposefully and grow in their relationship with God and others. But yet he will take personalthis is in Daniel 9. Tim: There's so many ways. And in the same way, life comes through the One so many can live. It's almost like this cosmic karma kind of thing, which is like, "I'm getting what I deserve." God does not punish for our sins once we have confessed it and truly turned away from it. We see this interfamily relationship in these early times in others (Abraham marries his half-sister; Lot's daughters conceive through their father). In Revelation 12:5, she gives birth to a son, a male son, who is going toand John uses the Greek word poimainein, which means to shepherd. This isn't speaking of salvation only. But it says "quick to anger". Each generation will see this struggle continue until Christ comes (the seed) and wins a final victory (crushes the head of Satan) by resurrecting from the dead: The struggle continues today with the "seed" but it is to lure us away from the truth. And He sees in this story God's love. Rob and Laura, all of the moments you mentioned the story in (00:08:00) the earthquake of the sons of Korah, or the story of the snakes, Laura, the story of the plagues, if you pay close attention to these texts, they're all built on echoing the language of the flood narrative. It's actually the framework in which most modern Westerners do our thinking. Henry Morris says that man's attempt to thwart God's curse is illustrated by the development of Cain's descendants ending with the 7th generation of Lamech. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And if you really want to figure out how the biblical authors think of it, you can't just pull out any one verse card. They are looking less and less like the people in the Garden and seven generations later are actually producing blasphemous poetry. We must not equate forgiveness with absence of painful impact. Yes, that's totally right. Yeah, that's right. Copyright 2023, iBelieve.com. We can move toward an answer, though, by considering who are and who are not our enemies. Carissa: Yeah. Kayleigh used the words "there seems to be a contradiction." Tim, hi. Tim: Yeah, totally. (00:12:00) But the whole poem is celebrating God's ultimate agency, causality as the originator of all that exists. Punishment is Contrary to the Gospel of Jesus. But what happens is that Tim: Yes. I keep problematizing things, and Jon you're sitting there looking unsatisfied. DISCUSSION: How Much Should a Candidate's Religion Matter? Tim: Yeah, that's good. As a Christian, when you experience a painful providence like an illness or a rebellious child or a broken marriage or a financial hardship or persecution, do you ever wonder if God is punishing you for some sin you committed? Copyright 2002-2023 Got Questions Ministries. Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world. Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! I felt like with me it wouldnt have taken much to get my attention. This seems like direct punishment to me, even though Numbers 26 says it was a "warning." I've had two things come to mind as I process that more. Since God has the ability to love us and bestow wonderful things on us, why do we receive hardship, loss, and distress? The design pattern. January 1, 2023 69 Comments When your life falls apart, you wonder if it's God's way of punishing you. For example, Job is not a covenant violator, but he does experience chaos and evil in his world. What does it mean to be chastened? How does God chasten us Sarah: Hi, Tim, John, and Carissa. Thanks for all you do. So I think you're right, we read these narratives with an extra layer of strangeness. #4. How Franciscans St. Marys Basilica in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. The second they're out in the wilderness, (00:55:00) and what they repeat is the rebellion from the first one is "you brought us out of Egypt. So even to call the Korah narrative God directly bringing justice, if you're standing there, you wouldn't see God. God describes himself as "compassionate." Tim: Yeah. Hebrews 12:5-7 says, And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? Anyway. Anyway, I've always thought that Jon: And then translated in NIV as a "rule". He cries out to God, Let their own table before them become a snare; and when they are at peace, let it become a trap. Even just the next psalm, Psalm 3, the psalm of David the king, when he fled from his son, Absalom. And the Messiah is coming and now he's saying, "Okay, enough stuff.". In the story of Korah in Numbers 16, for instance, was his death caused by an earthquake or God? Whereas other ones could be more passive. I also would include in this group those believers who are ornery and who hinder fruitful ministry, but nevertheless preach the gospel faithfully (as in Philippians 1:1518). Any parting words? Herodias was an enemy in this sense, plotting John the Baptists death because he opposed her marriage to Herod (Mark 6:1429). In this episode, Tim, Jon, and Carissa discuss what it means to be saved from Gods wrath by embracing the life of Jesus and a whole new set of natural consequences: lives given over to love and righteousness. And the people are offering incense and then fire consumes them. (00:52:00) I think all of this is what Paul has in mind when he says in 1 Corinthians 15 that the Messiah died for our sins, according to the Scriptures and he was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Its important that we look again to our mosaic understanding of Scripture, bearing in mind Psalm 2 is just one tile. As the collection of psalms unfolds, the Messiah is portrayed numerous times as the Afflicted One. The aim of the God-sent consequences of forgiven sin are (1) to demonstrate the exceeding evil of sin, (2) to show that God does not take sin lightly even when he lays aside his punishment, (3) to humble and sanctify the forgiven sinner. And in a second act of mercy, He put them outside the garden until He made a way for eternal deliverance. In the Old Testament, God did punish the Israelites for their sin because there had to be just retribution and the Savior had not yet come. The names of his wives mean ornament and shadow, suggesting their beauty and his attraction. While it is true that the ungodly, without exception, live at enmity with God (Romans 5:10; 8:78), not all unbelievers are enemies of Gods people in the strict sense that were talking here. But in His mercy, He covered them. Oh, well, yes, that's technically true. Laura: Hi there. Those are maybe the two main questions that can give us more solid answers than a category or a system. Showing So what John's doing here is he's actually picking up the image of Psalm 2 from the Septuagint but he's reading that shattering of heads in light of the whole book of Psalms development of the Messianic King, which is the king is going to become the shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep. One other thought. So as soon as you start getting very clearly decisive about, well, yeah, but Rome came out and took out Israel, but not the true Israel because true Israel is now this remnant, which is now the church, I can see some Christians getting really twitchy to borrow our phrase. We make the Bible crystal clear. Or there's another situation where God's like, "Egypt needs some locusts and so I'm going to plant some locusts seed over here and I'm going to set up the perfect conditions so that the locusts could come. 19. So what Moses says to God is, "Oh, God, God of the ruach of all flesh, when one person sins, will you be angry with all of them?" He is author of. If you confess your sins, I will forgive them and cleanse you from everything youve done wrong (1 John 1:9, authors first person interpretation). Reminding ourselves, then, of Gods judgment does not undermine the call to love. Ephesians 4:26-27, 30-32: 26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. Does God Punish Innocent People? - BibleProject But no, God allowed me to go down the path of one wrong choice after another. Tim: One could. Colossians 3:1 says, For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. This is what God seesnot your shame, regret, or sinGod sees you in Christ. Something Needs to Change: A Call to Make Your Life Count in a World of Urgent Need by David Platt. no more flood or rain. He's going to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron. We just assume this in our minds. Tim: Yeah, that's right. Does Moses convince God to change his mind? And that itself is anotherit's like the flood. What does the Bible say about breaking generational curses? And his anger is directed towards the tyrants and corrupt rulers of this world who are introducing the opening paragraph of the poem. But the situation becomes hairier when we try to apply David's words to our own experience. You're not alone if you're asking, "Is God punishing me for something I did?" And whenever that stability is compromised and chaos breaks in, it's a moment ofwell, there's two accounts of it. We get a glimpse of the origins of various social developments as they take place in this era: The descendants of Cain no longer farmed but began to earn their living through commerce and manufacturing (in a basic way) and they were the prototype for those who live in the cities today. In this case God does not execute the punishment due immediately but lists the consequence of this sin in his life. The tribune in Jerusalem was such a friend to Paul. And then that's your proof text. Again, I'm just trying to develop the portrait of the apostles over whom death has no power in theory. Jon: So I just want to ask one more question that piggybacks on the very first question. In one place God says he will strike down the Egyptians firstborn sons (Exodus 12:12), but in another he tells the Israelites he will not allow the destroyer to strike them (Exodus 12:23). The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance [and the knowledge of truth] (2 Peter 3:9, 2 Timothy 2:4). Does God punish sin? Does God punish Christians who sin? And for some people, that's a significant difference. But the aim of God-sent consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice. 4 How much longer will those criminals brag about the evil they did? So Abraham gets in God's face. Another inversion of this is Daniel. Thanks! When God told Jonah to go to Nenieva and he chose to go the other way, God caused a great fish to swallow him up. Thank you, everybody, for sending in your questions. Jon: Which it feels more active as well. He knows that for now, sin is in this world and it will remain until He returns. Carissa? Can you help me find better words than "passive" to describe Yahweh's wrath? Sometimes he allows us to see our sin and repent of them and ask for His forgiveness (1st John 1:9). God is love, but He is also just. Its not quite that simple. God did not cause your ankle to twist to punish you. Nomadic life preferred over settled life. If youre a Christian, He never will. but not ". God is the Creator and sustainer of the cosmos that keeps humans safe, as well as the one who allows cosmic stability to break down when humans break covenant with him. And it sounds like the story of the whole Bible all of a sudden. And then because of the intercession of the righteous one, judgment is transformed in salvation. Tim: So you read the severe stories of God's judgment, like in the Pentateuch, you know, Rob, you mentioned the story of Korah with the earthquake and the lightning, and so on. Though we have no indication in the text that he was a believer, the tribune still protected Paul from the Jews plot to murder him and gave Paul safe passage to Felix the governor (Acts 23:1630). It's problematizing it. One Bible verse jumping off the page during my quiet time could have changed the course of my life. The Gospel of Jesus applies to my sin today. In this episode, Tim, Jon, and Carissa explore the fourth attribute God assigns himself in Exodus 34:6-7, loyal love. And God's answer to them is, "No, I don't really work like that. Tim: I think so. I've one other thought. Carissa: A lot of the questions that we received like this is that the question underneath the question is, what did Jesus accomplish in His death, especially if He was the substitute for Barabbas for Israel? Jon: Do we need any more closure? Teach it. results. Paul understood the death of Jesus in light of his resurrection, and he understood both those things in light of the whole story of the Bible. And of wild, dangerous animals from the wilderness invading their way into the cultivated order of the sacred garden. But I can't escape the fact that I still live in civilization. But I think that's how the narrative works. Jesus tracked with this story. The Punishment of Cain | BibleTalk.tv God doesnt always swiftly send His judgment immediately after we sin. It has also taught me that God is the only One who can satisfy me. ), and morally acceptable (God said to multiply and this was the only way). Friends outside the church are unbelievers who nevertheless find common cause with the churchs ministry in some key aspect. At first, when you described Yahweh's wrath (00:02:00) as him handing over people to their own folly, I thought you meant his wrath was passive. Does God Punish Us When We Sin? | Jack Wellman - Patheos This question raises a raft of issues, more than we have space to consider here. It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?". Tim: Yeah, it does make sense. And the reason it grew was because they believed (00:49:00) in the resurrection and they gave their lives like Jesus as an act of total faith and surrender in the God life. That would be amazing. Tim: Excellent question. Like if there's some sort of final judgment (00:26:00) or if God's going to intervene and start giving consequences out, shouldn't He be able to tease out the difference between the people in the community that caused it and the people who were just along for the ride? I would consider modern-day organizations like Secular Pro-Life and Pro-Life Humanists as friends outside the church. 12 in the final counting. Jon: And these questions will span the entire series. The blood appeals to God for justice. We want to press, was God directly involved, or was He indirectly involved? And with evil tyrants, He's quick to get angry and will bring them what they have coming to them. Well, there's a whole bunch (00:48:00) of people that rejected Jesus and they didn't follow the Sermon on the Mount and it resulted in a revolt against Rome and Rome came and clobbered the place. In order to get what I wanted, I was willing to compromise my faith and myself. God does not need information but like Adam and Eve, He opens up the question in order to elicit from Cain an attitude of repentance. What God says to Moses when the leaders with Korah rebel is "I'm done with all these people," which has happened like four or five times now. Finfor is a website that writes about many topics of interest to you, it's a blog that shares knowledge and insights useful to everyone in many fields. Jon: The Messiah in the Revelation does shatter some stuff. . That's what we're trying to go after here. For years I asked God why He didnt spare me the heartache I experienced in my twenties through poor dating choices. So that's a portrait of the Messianic king in Psalm 2. Carissa: Is the question kind of more about God's character and His disposition toward people? She is also the author of the eBook Fall for Him: 25 Challenges from a Recovering Single. There is no hard, fast rule or principle found in the Bible when God will punish sin. I thought about that, too. That's a fitting consequence for Egypt. This was a question I received recently. And forgive yourself (by faith). That feels kind of Tim: Oh, and you're talking about in the plagues on Egypt? In the Bible, Gods anger and judgment are not always associated. Well, it's more complex. Jon: Thanks for wrestling through these ideas with us and keep it up. And then I'm going to direct them over to Egypt." I am always responsible for my sin; however, even it comes through the sovereignty of God. In addition to godly discipline for the sins of believers . Tim: Correct. Let's get to the second aspect that I've thought about is that for Jesus to die for the sins of Israel, is how He dies for the sins of humanity. It distorts the moral order, and therefore distorts the cosmic order. ", Carissa: Is that the literal? But there were a whole bunch of Israelites, as Jesus defined them, which is those who follow His teachings. This is their seventh act of rebellion in the wilderness. Then there's the bronze serpent incident in Numbers 21 where "the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; [which] bit them and many died" (00:03:01) because the people had been complaining. He also knows how He can use all of them to bring about His purposes and show His glory in my life and the lives of others. Like humanity, we repeat the sin of Adam and Eve. That angry punishment was completely spent on Jesusonce for allon . Or it's just if the Bible was designed to give us that kind of comprehensive explanation, Christians wouldn't have been arguing vehemently about this for 2000 years. So there's something happening here. So God keeps the dangerous animals out. We're in Portland, Oregon. There's 148 more. Yes, we should love our enemies. Although national Israel was conquered by Rome, Jesus brought victory to all true Israelites as he defined them: those who follow his teaching. Tim: Correct. I only wanted the one blessing He hadnt given me marriage. Revelation 12:9 In Romans 12, Paul warns his readers against taking vengeance into their own hands. Because the psalm expresses hope in a Messiah who will liberate his people from oppressive rule, Gods anger is viewed by the psalmist as a good thing. Our parents' problems affect us and so on and so on. Or is He just turning away and allowing people to experience their own consequences? I mean, it's hard to do, but it's like all these stories on their own are working together towards this bigger depiction or exploration of these themes. So one important distinction here is that this is the anger of the Messianic King. I loved God and had a willing heart, I was constantly at church, and I even read my Bible and prayed. It is really interesting. The word "NOD" means wandering and so it could suggest that Cain left the proximate area of the Garden and began to wander; or lived in a place called Nod but lived as a nomad without fixed roots.